The rescue efforts at Surfside's building collapse in Florida have been extended for six days. It seems that the community has lost any hope of finding survivors among the approximately 150 people still missing. According to the New York Times more than 200 emergency workers are on the scene at any one time. Since Thursday's collapse of half the 13-story Champlain South Towers building, only 11 people were able to be pulled from its remains. The Times predicted it would be one of the most fatal accidental building collapses in American History.AdvertisementSlate interviewed Michael Fagel, an emergency management specialist who was on the scene at the Oklahoma City Bombings and at the World Trade Center following Sept. 11. To get a better understanding of how a rescue operation works in the aftermath of a disaster, Slate interviewed Fagel. Fagel has been a teacher and author of books about emergency management and crisis planning. He spent most of his career in emergency services. Slate spoke to Fagel about the challenges facing Surfside, past disasters and reasons to keep hope alive.AdvertisementAdvertisementCan you tell us what they're doing in Surfside right at the moment?They are currently de-layering. They are also strengthening the basement and lower levels while they de-layer. They are using every element they have ever learned and pushing their way throughout the building. It gives me chills to look at old photos of Oklahoma City. You're crawling on slabs and rebar.AdvertisementWhat happens next in this operation?They are still looking for people to live with them. They won't stop until I know when. This is happening against an operational plan. Team members are looking at all angles and learning from every crew who has come off the pile. They say, "Well, this worked quite well over there in this sector." Let's do it over here. Let's try this.AdvertisementAdvertisementDo you have any particular problems that arise later in the process of completing your project?Eight days ago, Haiti had its last living victim. We were all looking forward to the moment when rescue would be completed. As we looked up, we were thinking, "Wow, it's over. There won't be any live victims." I know this feeling intimately and it makes me ache just thinking about it. They may find living people here, but I'm sure they will find more dead people in this building. Don't lose heart. This is the most important element.Do we hope against hope? We were making use of our tools. They have more equipment than we had in 1995 or 2001. Take a look at the changes in 20 years: Sonar, radar, ground-penetrating cameras can see through concrete. They can see through concrete slabs and can use tools to look into voids. In 2001, we didn't have that and 1995. It was a threading of what I would call an analog camera through a pipe that people could see. Technology is much more efficient today. The technology is also much more able to detect the sounds. People would stop helping and take a moment to hear a moan, a whimper, whisper, or scream. We did those things. They have better sound equipment, better cameras, and better shoring equipment that will make their structure safer.AdvertisementAdvertisementCould you please tell me more about the experience in Oklahoma City, and September 11.Oklahoma City, I arrived there on the evening of April 19, 1995. As they were briefing into the mission, our mission was to assist assigned crews. We were telling them what they would see, feel, smell, taste and do. We told them what they were going to do. We looked at the crews to determine if they were able to go on the mission. Sometimes, we saw crews with a deer-in the-headlights look. Sometimes, we found crews not safe enough to operate. We would ask if someone didn't seem capable of handling the mission. We would resupply and place you somewhere else.AdvertisementOn September 11, 2001, I was assigned to fire department at the World Trade Center. Our responsibilities included safety, logistics, and everything else. We found American flags for the victims, as well as body bags, flashlights, coveralls and other items that could have been used to carry them to the mission. Our mission was constantly changing from one moment to the next. Security was a concern. Safety was a concern. We were concerned about the safety of those wearing respirators. We didn't know what was in the acrid smoke. My job was to ensure that crews had the correct personal protection equipment, including helmets, eye protection, and respirators. It wasn't easy because many of my crew didn't wear them, or they were damaged while digging. People would respond by saying, "I don't need this" and throwing the respirators out. They might say, "Don't argue with me because I'm there digging for my friends," which is quite true. Many people have been affected by World Trade. World Trade made me sick and I lost my kidney to kidney cancer. Also, I have lung problems and other issues. I'm still here, and that is a good thing.AdvertisementAdvertisementHow can you prepare them for the trauma they're about to go through?We do our best. It wasn't that we said, Your mind will be mess up for the next 30+ years. I can tell you that I was working April 19, 1995 and thought I had seen a lot. I was a police officer, an ambulance operator and a public safety guide. I wasn't ready for it. Up until September 11, 2001 April 19, 1995 filled every inch of my mind and soul. That was all I could think of. It's easy to believe that because we have the uniform, we have superhuman protection powers. But we don't.AdvertisementThis is where people get hurt. We have to tell people that it is okay to stop. It's okay to admit that you can't do it. We have to do that. That's what we don't do. It is possible that the people working on missions will not see anything about him until one year later. They may also be on another call and see another building similar to this. We will never know.AdvertisementAdvertisementAdvertisementYou are saying that there are Miami first responders who aren't working and are still having difficulty seeing this.It would be amazing if people from Oklahoma City were able to see those images right now. It is there. It is there. It is there. It smells. It smells good. It's all good. It's like a scab which may or not have healed. Now you can just rip it off from the bottom. I am still not fully healed from Oklahoma City, September 11. All of these people who are still out there working don't know what it will do for them over the next year.AdvertisementAre there other aspects of this operation that people may not be aware of or underestimate?People might ask, "Why are they moving so slowly?" They can't dig faster. They can't dig faster. They can't take the beam and move this rubble around without knowing what is underneath. They might not see what else is underneath it, and they may have to move it. It is impossible to move one piece of furniture without another falling into place. Although it looks slow, it is not. It's all happening very carefully.AdvertisementIs there anything about the Miami building that is different than OKC or the WTC?AdvertisementIt's the infrastructure, it's the building, and it is the weather. You're getting more rain. There is heavy heat. Now you're almost at the weather inversion. This may mean that the smoke is being kept below ground level rather than blowing up. Each of these factors can create a completely different atmosphere. Each signature gives you a different way to react.It was an explosive force that drove it upward, up, then down. Despite all the video and photos taken in Miami, the buildings that fell looked almost like they had collapsed on themselves. It doesn't matter how the buildings came down or how the structures fell, it is not the same. Although it may appear the same pile of debris as before, there are still many buildings standing. There are similarities, and some pancakes. It is completely different and they cannot use the Oklahoma City techniques. They are now writing the book, inch by inch.Do you have any other information that people should know about this situation?Because this will have a positive effect on the entire community, we need to help them. Surfside, Florida was the site. Surfside was the location where the incident occurred.
