Transcript: Why It's So Hard to Get the Oil Taps Turned Back On

The price of oil is high. There is a lot of oil in the ground. The supply response has been disappointing to say the least. Higher gas prices are a contributing factor to inflation. There is a hold up. Peter Tertzakian is a long time energy investor and industry participant. There are a number of operational factors that affect the oil supply, including a shortage of labor and degraded equipment. The specific constraints and what it will take to get supply going on are discussed in the transcript.

Points of interest in the pod:On energy workers cashing out — 4:02

Where energy industry talent comes from  — 06:18

Resource management courses are offered.

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Joe Weisenthal spoke.

This is the second episode of the Odd LotsPodcast. My name is Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway spoke.

Tracy Alloway is my name.

The man is Joe

There are a lot of things that stuck out in our conversation with Goldman's top metal strategist, Nick Snowdon. There's been a talent shortage in this industry and we talked about it.

The person is Tracy.

It's true. You can understand why. I think the younger generation might have some reservations about going into mining because of the environmental concerns. It wasn't a profitable industry for a long time, even though there was a big boom and people made a lot of money.

The man is Joe

It's true. Imagine if you were to think about your career and you were pretty technical minded. You're intelligent. You can do a lot of things with your intelligence, but you have to make a decision. Do you want to study rock formations in North Dakota or somewhere up in Canada? Do you want to live in California and work for Facebook and get a lot of free lunches and dry cleaning and maybe make millions of dollars? I'm not sure. It seems like an easy choice for a talented person to make, since they are thinking about which direction they want to go in.

Tracy spoke.

Silicon Valley was very good at selling the idea of making the world a better place, which I don't think is as important as it used to be, but for a while it was.

The man is Joe

Don't come to Canada if you don't want to be cold all the time. Oh! You contribute to the worsening of the planet through global warming. Oh! This industry isn't going to have a future. These were similar to the messages being said. You're going to make a difference to climate change by participating in this industry. The industry is going to disappear because of electric cars. Software makes a lot of money. You can see why people chose one option.

Tracy spoke.

It's true. We obviously have to dig into this. There's a talent shortage in energy and mining.

The man said, "I'm 02:51."

It's right. Now of course everything's flipped and there's a question of why can't we restart the mines. We can't get drilling again for energy. Natural gas and oil activity has not been as robust as people expected. What are the constraints on getting everything going again and getting dirty stuff out of the ground, whether it's gasoline or fuel or metals? Someone who understands the space will be our guest. We are going to talk to him. He is the managing director of a private equity company that focuses on energy and he knows a lot about it. Thank you so much, Peter.

Peter Tertzakian spoke.

It is my pleasure. I'm happy to be on the show.

Joe: (3:47).

Is that correct? The premise that we started off with was that the number of people wanting to make a career out of engineering has waned over the last 10 years.

Peter spoke.

That is correct. There's more than one thing going on. With these higher commodity prices, the older generation is going to cash in and exit the business, so to speak, because nobody is coming into the business.

The person is Joe.

The higher prices increase the need for talent, but what they do in the immediate term is a bunch of people are like, 'oh, I can finally retire because my oil stocks are up, or my commodity, whatever it is, my copper stock, that company that I worked for' The first order effect is to speed up the departure of the existing talent.

Peter said that it was four minutes.

It's true. That is going to be a huge problem. Resource exploration has a lot of tacit knowledge, which is one of the reasons why the older generation is lost. It takes a long time to build up gut feel expertise, just as much as it takes to build up numerical expertise.

Tracy said that it was Affirmative.

I think I have a picture of Bruce Willis teaching the kids how to mine. Yes, right? Do you remember that?

Joe said that it was 03:18.

It's true. It's right. There is an asteroid.

Peter said that it was 03:21.

It's true. The way things work in Hollywood are similar to that. I think that the industry is very technologically advanced and that the loss of knowledge is more than just a perception of people digging holes in the ground. There's a lot of tacit knowledge that needs to be replaced and it's more complicated than that.

Tracy:05:47

A lot of the pilot shortage that we saw was due to the fact that we had a lot of pilots that came through the military. We don't have many people to replace them because they entered retirement age after completing their service. Where have energy talents come from?

Peter said that it was 06:19.

There are two places where energy talent can come from. The field is the first thing that comes to mind. People are usually hired and trained to produce talent. There is a lot of training that goes on in regards to safety and how to operate equipment. It takes a long time for that to be certified. There is a lot of engineering done in the offices. The talent pool there comes from universities, petroleum engineering courses, geology, chemical engineering, and so on.

Joe said, "06:58."

At the university level, what has it been like for students in these fields?

Peter:07:06

In the handful of universities in the Western hemisphere, where there's a lot of expertise in the universities to train students, the number of students is decreasing. Programs are being shredded by the universities. It's what you said. The desire for students with technical background is what the emphasis is on for students. It isn't going into the resource economy. It's problematic.

Tracy:

The sales pitch was earlier. In the 70's, 80's, and 90's, what benefits would a career in resource management offer?

Peter:

The benefits would be pay, to start with, because historically, and even now, these are very high paying jobs, and even so it's difficult to attract people, but historically it's also been seen with the growth of the economy. Fossil fuels have dominated the energy of the last couple centuries. You are making a difference to society and the economy. It's historically been the paradigm, but now it's broken in the western world. The price of the commodity and the supply shortage are already happening because of that.

Joe:

What schools have stopped operating? The University of Texas is where I attended. There was a geology program there, I think at the time there were a decent number of people going into the petroleum industry, but where have we actually seen that?

Peter said, "9:02)."

It's true. I'm not allowed to speak for the American universities. The Texas universities, including SMU, some of the schools in Louisiana, and Oklahoma are places where the schools have a lot of resources. I am located in Canada. There is a university in Canada. Canada is the 4th largest producer of oil and gas in the world. We have the schools in this area. Some of the programs at the University ofAlberta are likely to be shut down due to the low number of students. The talent pool is going to be short. There is no doubt.

Tracy said, "09:47."

Is it possible to give us more information on the extent of the talent shortage or the number of students who enroll? Is there a specific area where it is more acute than other types of energy jobs?

Peter: 10:34.

It's true. I had a conversation a couple weeks ago with a faculty member in the petroleum engineering department.

Joe: 10:35.

Which school are you talking about?

Peter: 10:37.

There is a university in this picture. Typically you would see 30 students a year in a graduating class. It would have been a lot more than that. I believe they have one student enroll. That's what it is. As we get closer to the fall session, the numbers are not looking good, but that may change.

Joe: 10:33.

One person. I introduced you as the managing director of the company, but can you tell me a little bit about the cycles you've seen? Have you watched or been involved in the extractive resources industries?

Peter: 12:14.

I started out as ageoscientist in the 1980's. I was employed by an oil company. I moved to the world of finance, the world of technology, and the world of energy technology after working in the field. I have a lot of experience in energy and energy technology. Over the last two decades, I've financed everything from oil and gas to solar, to wind. When the price of oil and gas goes up, that is the signal, as I watched the boom and bust cycles. The companies need to drill more and bring in more supply. Over the course of the last twelve years, that signal has been broken.

The vilification of the industry is one of the reasons. Many of the publicly- traded Western oil and gas companies have investors who want their money back in dividends. There isn't as much money going back into the ground to give a supply side response to meet the demand as there used to be. Everyone is back in the air and on the road. The energy crisis we have not seen since the 1970s is due to the loss of the upstream talent pool and the war in Europe.

Tracy said that it was 13:05.

The storm was a perfect one. You know for very different things, that's why we hear that phrase so many times. I'm looking at a chart of the price of oil and it's $120 a barrel. In olden times, you would expect a driller to see that chart and think, "Oh, we're going to restart some of our old wells." They would have gotten that done quickly, because of the price. What is the hold up for restarting those drills when oil goes over $120? We have to walk through all the chokepoints in order to ramp up that production.

Peter: 15 minutes.

If you inflation-adjust the price of oil and take it back historically all the way to the beginning of the last century, $120 is the high point on an inflation. You will get a demand response and people will start peeling back. The supply response usually starts around $75. We did not see that this time. The price went up through $75, $80 and the call went out, 'Hey, you know, the price is going up.' We need more production. Everyone told me to focus on profitability, not production growth, and give the cash flow back to the shareholders. So what are we doing to change the tune? Everybody says that it's the end of oil, so why should I drill again?

You get into a hundred with that amount of money. That's fascinating. The rig count starts to go up a bit, but it's still very low compared to what it would've been in the past. The lure of going back and bringing on production will be irresistible, but it won't be the same level of drilling. We haven't talked about all the constraints yet. People are in the field. We've talked about engineering graduates going to work in the office. You need to discuss the shortages in the field.

Joe: 15 minutes.

Let's discuss those. How many people are willing to do the work, the ease of hiring, the number of people willing to do the work, how is that different from previous cycles? The field needs to be staffed.

Peter spoke about 15 minutes ago.

It's true. So what we've seen, you have to go back to the beginning of the year. Money was being given to the industry from Wall Street to drill because of the amount of drilling that was happening. There was a supply problem. The Saudis are not giving up their market share. That was the beginning of the price war. After they flooded the market, the price of oil fell to 30 bucks, 35, and that started a period of low prices. The industry was going into a downturn. The prices came back to the level of the $50-level. The end of oil narrative began. There was a pall over the industry. Seven years is a long time in that context.

The service companies that go out to the field with their people want to know why they shouldn't build new equipment. I don't understand why I would keep equipment. I'm going to cannibalize parts from old equipment in order to keep the equipment. Today, we have a shrunken field capacity. A lot of knowledgeable people have lost their training on how to operate this equipment. That is being told to go drill again. We need it because we want to get out of Russia. Wait a second. Even if I wanted to I wouldn't be able to hire a cruise overnight to do this. There are inflationary effects of things like steel and chemicals and raw parts. It would be hard if you wanted to grow it meaningfully.

Tracy said that it was 17:30.

Is it possible to talk about this from a technical point of view. If I have a well that I haven't been using in a while, what does it take to restart it? What are the technical things that I need to get it going again if I can get the labor?

Peter: 18 minutes.

It's not a lot of restarting old wells because you don't want oil wells and you never want to shut them in because restarting them is difficult. If you want to grow production back to where it was before you have to drill more wells. You need all sorts of peripheral services to get these things going, and that's where the problem lies. You also need service equipment to get the old wells up and running again. If you want to bring on the amount that we're forfeited from sanctioning Russia, you're talking several million barrels a day, which the Permian and fields like that up here in Canada, we can do, but you just cannot. There's a general reluctance by investors and others saying that they don't know if they believe everything you've said. I don't know why I'd put money in the ground.

Joe: 23:03.

I'm interested in what you said about equipment being not preserved or preserved in a bad state, and where it was located. For the last seven years, where was the industry located and what was it used for? We're back. They opened the stores. Was it rusty? What type of equipment are you talking about?

Peter said that it was 19 minutes.

It's a signal to just contract when commodity prices fall and stay low. If the downturn is severe, the service companies have to lay off people and stop building equipment. Contracting your fleet is something you have to do. Why would I keep saying a hundred units? The oil and gas companies only want the equivalent of 40 units when I sell them. You keep the 40 units going, but instead of buying a whole bunch of new spare parts, you just start cannibalizing the other parts.

Joe said that it was 21:01.

You don't want to buy new spare parts for the equipment, so you cannibalize the others to keep them going. They're missing parts when they access the other 60.

Peter: 21:45.

It's absolutely true. Over the last seven years, there has been a question of why would I buy a new item. I try to keep going. This creates a situation where you say, "Okay, I need a bunch of spare parts if I want to ramp up" Now we have supply chain issues. People issues have arisen. It's hard to ramp back up at a snap of your fingers.

Tracy talked about it.

When oil prices were low, one of the talking points in the industry was why people kept pumping at these prices. The production was a lot stickier than people had thought. Why do you believe that happened? Standardization of parts for rigs and drills was one of the things that people talked about around that time. Producing oil was more efficient due to technological advancement and standardization. You could spend less money if you wanted to. Is that possible with high oil prices? standardization should help keep production up.

Peter: 23:20.

It's true. It's okay. I think you brought up some of the important points, but I want to focus on the one about 'Why keep pumping if prices are low'. It's very expensive for oil wells to turn them off. You want to produce for a long time. When the price went down, we went down to $35, $40 for a while, but for the most part over the course of the 2010s, it was around 50 bucks a barrel. There are three different kinds of costs here. It is the cost to keep pumping. The op costs are usually less than that. Just by pumping, you can make money. It's called a decline curve if you don't drill more into the same areas.

You're pumping 100 barrels. Some of the wells decline at 20% or more. It's even more in the beginning. Let's say 70 barrels for the sake of argument. Next year it will be 50 barrels. Basic operating costs keep the oil flowing. You need drilling to keep production level. When you go into a downturn, you typically pull back on your maintenance costs, and you might decline your production. If you're in growth mode and there's the call because prices are high, then you start drilling new wells. For the past seven years it has mostly been an op cost and maintenance cost. The biggest event was the swine flu. It's okay. There was a long period in the Pandemic. They said no growth, no maintenance, and no nothing. American production dropped by at least a million barrels a day. We haven't gotten back to normal.

Joe said, " 24:51."

I realize we haven't really talked about what happened in those months, the early months of the Pandemic, and of course there's the infamous, like briefly West Texas Intermediate, traded at negative $40 a barrel, I think at one point. There was a degradation of the industry over the course of a couple of years. The trajectory was changed so that the energy players wouldn't go back to the old way of losing a lot of money. Can you tell me more about the impact of those few months in 2020?

Peter: 25: 38.

The contraction and the capacity of the spare parts and so on was caused by the 2014, ‘15 event and it was huge. Many companies continued to exist. All of the pipes are backing up because there is no demand when you get to $20 a barrel. Nobody is using the stuff for a while with global immobility and lock downs. Service companies and producers experience cash flow problems. Those that were on the verge of going bankrupt. There was more layoffs, yes. You lose more talent and knowledge. The problem was the Pandemic. Electric vehicles are taking over the world, as well as the whole end of oil narrative, at the same time. This stuff is no longer needed by us. We're going to be able to overcome our commute thanks to the help of zoom. It made the industry weaker. The demand suddenly came roaring back. The Western oil and gas industry has had to cut production due to intense pressure to decarbonize. So here we are.

Tracy said that it was 27:14.

Let us know more about the financing part of it. For energy producers in particular, this idea that credit has been plentiful for the past few years, but for anything that's considered a non-ES industry, is something that we hear from them. That has been for the industry.

Peter: 27:44.

It has been very realistic. Equity and debt are two major sources of financing. When the price of a commodity goes up, Wall Street players say, "Here, go drill, go produce more." The combination of seven years of low prices and not making any money already made investors say, "well, you know, give me a call when you make money" On top of that, the end of oil narrative, ESG, and many financial institutions' pension plans, for example, say that they are not allowed to invest in these companies anymore. The Net-Zero Banking Alliance says no more fossil fuel debt investments. The oil and gas companies are making a lot of money. They are able to finance themselves and drill themselves. The investors who stuck with those companies are saying, "Well, you know, I stuck it out with you, give me my money back in a dividend and buy back shares and so on" The ability to put money back into the ground to grow production is very difficult in this situation.

Joe: 30:22.

It's in theory. The shareholders of the companies that are sitting on cash losses don't want to invest in the company. They don't want to invest because they want to get their money back. There isn't a pool of other money, but that would be more of the ESG-impaired financing, because all different kinds of industries, it sounds like, or all different sorts of players.

Peter said, "29:57."

The alt finance universe is starting to emerge. Equity providers and debt providers in the alt finance universe are not worried about ESG. The money will be given to you. It might be at a higher cost. They finance these companies when they come in. At the moment, oil and gas companies are paying down their debt at a rate of knots. The issue is going to come when the price of oil falls back to $80 and we think it's all okay. The root issue of the need for fossil fuels, oil and gas for several decades is not going away, so it is a very precarious situation.

Tracy talked about it.

A lot of people in ESG would probably say that this is the kind of dynamic that they want. We don't want oil at $120 a barrel, but we want people to work in other industries. In order to encourage newer types of energy, we want to choke off funding for dirty industries. How would you respond to that message?

Peter: 31: 35.

I have seen how transitions work and have the ability to finance energy. I have written books about energy transition before it was a big deal. It's not a good idea to abandon this industry because the price goes up to 120 dollars. It's like imposing a huge carbon tax on the people when gasoline goes from $50 a barrel to $120 a barrel. It's huge. It creates all sorts of social issues and makes people feel less connected to one another. It's one way to think about making people switch off of oil and gas because the alternatives are hard to find. It costs people money, which they don't have now, to buy a new electric vehicle, for example, or replace their furnace with a heat pump, or something like that. We are creating a distorted economy that speaks to a very disorderly transition that has the potential to cause civil unrest and problems.

Joe said that it was 33 minutes.

You're invested in the transition because you are. It sounds like this is a bad way to accelerate the transition, but what do you think about it? What is the orderly transition?

Peter said that it was 33:20.

I'm still bullish on renewable energy. The cost curve is going to come down. For the past five and a half years, I have been driving an electric vehicle. I like the idea of electric vehicles. What do you call me a color commentator in energy? The transition doesn't happen overnight. The historical transitions take a long time. It's almost a lot of arrogance to think that we can get off this stuff in a few years and switch to something else. The equivalent of a $250 carbon tax is what we have right now. The only thing it's doing is creating animosity in society, and that's what it's trying to do.

Tracy: 35:47.

If this is my new favorite question to ask people, but if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the way the current world works or the way policy is formed, in order to help some of the problems or help alleviate some of the problems we've been dealing with

Peter said that it was 35:11.

It's probably not one, but I think we should focus on reducing emissions, which is the main objective. Reducing emissions is not the same as closing the oil and gas industry. Reducing emissions is easier than putting an industry out of business, I think. The only way to decarbonize quickly is by shutting down the oil and gas industry and calling it dead and buried, which is what has been made to this point. We need to get people back into the industry that is innovative in terms of how to reduce their emissions and carbon capture and other technologies that are yet to come to the forefront so we can reduce emissions dramatically. Decarbonize and create clean and prosperous energy can be done with a transition to electrification. If we don't do it well, you're going to create all sorts of social tensions, which we're seeing right now. It's obstructionist in terms of getting and it's friction in terms of getting to the end goal

Joe said, "36:57."

Is there anything that could be done in the US or Canada to increase the production of oil? That is a large thing. I read a report that said that Biden and his chief of staff look at the price of gasoline every day, and that Biden wakes up every day. If you look at the rig counts, they are going up, are there policies that could accelerate both production and refining in the short to medium term?

Peter said that it was 39:35.

I believe it's as much policy. Canada may be a little different than the US. The shareholders of the industry are tired of being vilified and the negative rhetoric. The domestic industry is one of the best in the world and plays a valuable role in energy security and energy affordability. To say that the industry is important would make a lot of people more likely to be part of the solution and even encourage people to come back to work on the industry. It's important to us that we have a smooth transition with safe, secure, cheap, clean energy.

Joe said, "38:47."

In your opinion, we are nowhere close to the end of fossil fuels. When you think about the transition, what do you see? Is it two decades or a decade? How does it look? Peak energy demand and production are related. From your perspective, what is the ideal transition?

Peter said, "39 minutes."

It's true. Let's take a look at the word transition. The peak oil demand is likely to be around the year 2030. Let's think about transition since that's my estimate. The demand for DVD players goes down and the demand for streaming goes up as a result of the transition from DVD players to streaming. Even though we have oil and gas, coal is still going up at the same time as renewables are rising and electric vehicles are rising. Our energy system is more diversified than a transition. There is a huge difference. It is important to bring that to cars. There are a lot of metrics measuring the sales of electric cars. That's great. I have been driving one for five and a half years. I think it's great. The real metric in terms of decarbonization and transition is the number of cars we take off the road. When someone sells a vehicle to buy an electric vehicle, that vehicle goes to another person. When that person is done with it, they usually go to a developing country and drive it for 20 years.

Joe said, "40:33."

It's right. Wow! It really is.

Peter said, "40:34."

If you think about vehicles today, they'll go 2, 300,000 miles easy. They are built roboticly. The cars we produced a decade ago were not as good. The real metric for a transition is how quickly we don't use legacy paradigms for energy and instead focus on the growth curve of new energy systems. The old stuff needs to be retired. One of the big issues with oil and gas is that oil demand is not likely to go down because the population is still growing in developing economies. More and more people are buying vehicles. They don't necessarily buy electric vehicles. They're buying a used car that gets shifted in a container ship. I don't think that the decline of the fossil fuel systems and the growth of the new clean energy systems will happen until the year 2040. Between now and then, we have a huge gap that's getting worse in terms of the incumbent systems.

Joe said, "Forty two."

We've been talking about financing and constraints, but it was great to get a clear idea of how they're thinking. Thanks so much for coming on Odd lots. It was very educational.

Peter said, "Forty two."

It's my pleasure. I would like to say thank you for having me.

Tracy said, "Forty-five."

Thank you, Peter. That was fascinating.

Joe said, "Forty four."

Tracy, you have a hundred pieces of equipment, you only use 40, but you cannibalize the other 60 to maintain the existing 40. At the end, you don't have any more. You did not purchase anything new. It was one of the clearest examples of supply side degradation. When there is a long slump in an industry, what happens?

Tracy said, "Forty-nine."

It's absolutely true. That anecdote of one person versus classes that used to be, you know, 30 or more, that's kind of stunning to me, but I guess, you know, what would you expect when for? You are ruining the world. Who would want to go into that?

Joe: 44:35.

It doesn't seem right. I agree. I'm sure in many cases there were very well paying jobs still, even during the downturn years, but very little about that career over the last 10 years, would've seemed to be especially appealing for a lot of people. It's kind of mind blowing to think that the first effect of a surge in energy stocks is that a lot of people who work for Exxon are going to retire, right? You get people who can cash out and retire if you put them in the market before you have a positive price signal.

Tracy said, "Forty four."

One of the other things that struck me was the idea that if people were nicer to the industry, it would make them feel better about themselves. People don't want to feel like they're not making a difference when they're in a job.

Joe: 45:37.

It's true. It's weird. On the other hand, and that's true, but something else I've thought about is the fact that Trump was very nice to the industry. How much money did the industry lose from 2016 through 2020?

Tracy talked about it.

They were still making things. The difference is that.

Joe said that it was 44 minutes.

It's so strange. We're nice. We are all going bankrupt. We have a president who doesn't say nice things in the US but the industry is making a lot of money. I don't know what it is. It's kind of perverse.

Tracy said, "Forty five."

The idea of peak oil, which I haven't heard of in a long time, was one of the things that I thought was intriguing. We're not replacing all the engines with new electric ones, we're just moving them to a different location.

Joe said, "45:42."

If the pool of the global population that needs a car continues to grow, then you can have a situation in which you have booming EV demand in places like the US and Norway. All of these used cars don't leave the road and go to poorer countries. Cars are made well these days. After the second owner in the US sells it to someone else, they might live another 20 years.

Land Rover from the 1990s are very desirable.

Joe said, "Forty-six."

They aren't. I didn't like the used Land Rover very much. Buy a new Land Rover.

Tracy said that it was 48:24.

If you were living in a place like that, you would feel different.

The man is Joe

I don't want anyone to buy an old Land Rover. They're good. I would never buy an old Land Rover no matter how hard you try.

Tracy talked about it.

It's okay. We are going to have to discuss this.

Joe said, "47:47."

Have you ever looked at that website?

Tracy said that it was 48 minutes.

It is not possible to say yes.

Joe said, "46:51."

It's cool because they have all these like old classic cars, but it's called "Bring a Trailer" because of the old classic car auctions that are like from the 80's and 90's. You're going to drive yourself crazy if it doesn't work.

Tracy said that it was 47 minutes.

It's okay. A lot of the newer cars, people don't have the expertise needed to fix them if something goes wrong because they're computerized.

Joe said, "47:26."

Don't trust anyone else. You do not have the experience. The problem was not that bad because we had a Land Rover that we used in our family. We had to find a manual. It will never happen. It's not important how cool they look. Don't even think about buying it.

Tracy said, "47h."

Okay, what if I don't? Would that be better than Rover? Are you a fan of a Toyota LandCruiser?

Joe said, "47:52."

It is possible that Toyota would be better.

Tracy said, "47: 53."

It's okay. There are many reasons why you might want an older vehicle. Peter pointed out that the assumption that we're all going to switch to electric vehicles might not be realistic.

Joe said, "47 minutes."

There is a broad point. I have opinions about that category.

Tracy: 48 minutes.

If anyone wants to get a reaction out of Joe on social media, they should just send pictures of Land Rover at him.

Joe said, "47 minutes."

They look great. Don't even think about driving one.

Tracy said that it was 48 minutes.

Tell him that you want to buy one. It's okay. It's alright.

Joe: 48: 24.

I don't give financial advice, but I don't recommend buying a 1990s Land Rover.

Tracy said that it was 48 minutes.

It's okay. Is it possible to leave it there.

Joe: 49:31.

Leave it there at the show. Thanks for taking the time to listen.

You can follow Peter Tertzakian on the social networking site.